A small background story so as to illuminate the few reading this of how I got to read this utter nonsense. Elver Loho wrote a blog entry some time back in which he gave us the link to a quite funny little movie.
Interestingly – there was a fellow called Kip Watson who went ahead an questioned (actually he was quite unfair – his first sentence being: “OK, now you’re just being silly.“)
Anyhow, having not much to do at the moment I went ahead and checked Kips website. I’ll just quote the most probably best collection of examples of flawed logics and factual mistakes I have ever come across in a single blog post.
Does religion cause terrorism?
1) The massive upsurge in terrorism is a post war phenomenon, coinciding with the period of greatest attempted Soviet expansionism.
2) The great majority of terrorists, much greater in number and equal in savagery to Al Qaeda, have been Socialists (usually referred to as ‘Communists’, which is a faction of Socialism).
3) While a backward and violent society during most of the cruel Ottoman domination, the Arabs didn’t learn the particular sadistic effectiveness of modern terrorist tactics until they fell deeply under the Soviet sphere of influence.
4) Sayyid Qutb, the political philosopher behind Al Qaeda, owes at least as much and probably more to Hitler (Nazism — National Socialism — being another faction of Socialism) than to Islam.
5) Socialism is nothing but the logical political consequence of the philosophy of Materialistic Atheism.
Therefore the cause of terrorism is not ‘religion’ but Athesim.
Wow, ey? I kind don’t even know where to start. Then again, he has been so kind as to list his statements with numbers, so I guess that the best way to get over with this is to just take them one by one. I can’t possibly be told that I am taking his statements out of context, as each and everyone is a new entity.
The massive upsurge in terrorism is a post war phenomenon, coinciding with the period of greatest attempted Soviet expansionism.
Wait… post war? Which war? World War 2? Or the soviet war in Afghanistan? Or are we talking about wars where the United States took part? Damn it, I just don’t know which one he is talking about. Or maybe the last Iraq war? Na, that wouldn’t fit. There is no soviet anymore.
Massive upsurge in terrorism? Wait, weren’t the French revolution, the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand no terrorism? What about the Russian Revolution of 1905 or 1917? What do you define as terrorism Kip? If it is a fight against an established piece of society, against a government, against oppression, these sure are valid examples. Better yet, they all took place before WW2, which I believe you are talking about.
What about the greatest attempted Soviet expansionism. What do you mean by greatest attempted expansionism? You don’t try expansionism. You either do it, or you don’t. Depending on what exactly you are talking about. Every god damn war is to some extend at least caused by expansionism. And I really mean every war. You could cite the Soviet war in Afghanistan, and I’d say: “Hey look, an interesting example.” You could cite the Russo-Turkish War but that wouldn’t be soviet expansionism anymore, now would it?
The great majority of terrorists, much greater in number and equal in savagery to Al Qaeda, have been Socialists (usually referred to as ‘Communists’, which is a faction of Socialism).
Excuse me, what? First of, please contact your Department of Defense. You seem to know a hell of a lot about those fancy terrorists. Maybe you can be of some value to whatever your country does. Anyhow, let’s get on with this.
On what information do you base what you just said? In which way do the terrorists you know behave like, or remind you of Socialists? I suppose you are talking about Muslims here – as you are naming Al Qaeda. I fail to see how you can say that those people or there entourage is socialistic. Most of the Arabic countries have very conservative politics, and nothing at all in common with socialism. Whomever you talking about that, that’s not the main point here.
The point is: Saying that socialists are often referred to as communists shows that you have no idea at all about what socialism is in the first place. Even then: saying that communism is a part of socialism is in my eyes the same as saying that nationalism is a part of republicanism (or conservatism if you want).
While a backward and violent society during most of the cruel Ottoman domination, the Arabs didn’t learn the particular sadistic effectiveness of modern terrorist tactics until they fell deeply under the Soviet sphere of influence.
Well mate, I come to think that you just don’t have a fucking clue what you are talking about. Truly amazing and fascinating stuff. No offense, but perhaps you should go back to comic books. It’s unbelievable through which amount of pain certain people go to publish some crap like that. Astonishing I say.
Are you really comparing modern terrorist tactics with the things people learned from each other about 350 years ago? That’s when the Ottoman Empire was at the verge of it’s geographical size.
Let’s ignore the subtle placement of the pleonasm – cruel domination – and get on to other things. When exactly were the states who formed after the ottoman empire shrank in size over the years in the soviet sphere of influence? I mean, we are not talking about the Greece, Austria, and the like, are we? Otherwise your reference earlier on to “Al Quada” wouldn’t really make any sense. We can’t be talking about the Mahgreb either.
Let’s see what we’ve got left over.
Egypt? Hm, was quite conservative and nationalistic at the time. You surely remember Nasser, don’t you? Suez crisis and the like? No worries if you don’t, just trust me, that wasn’t really socialism.
Iraq? Was ruled by the Hashemite until 1958. It then was – yes, I acknowledge you this one – for 5 whopping years in quite good standings with the Soviets. Saudi Arabia never even got close to a similar situation.
And Iran was for the majority of the 20th century a close ally to the U.K. and the U.S. We certainly aren’t talking about the post revolution area, or are we?
So, which country have you been talking about? Or which regions?
Sayyid Qutb, the political philosopher behind Al Qaeda, owes at least as much and probably more to Hitler (Nazism — National Socialism — being another faction of Socialism) than to Islam.
Excuse me – what? You certainly know that Sayyid has been dead for about 40 years? Nevertheless, I give you the point that his writings might have inspired one or the other. The relation to Hitler however…
And what on earth allows you to state that Hitler had anything to do with socialism? Or that his movement was a part of socialism? Are you mad? I mean seriously… claiming that his regime was a socialistic one is utter nonsense. If anything he was rather a pure anti-socialist or anti-communist if you want.
Socialism is nothing but the logical political consequence of the philosophy of Materialistic Atheism.
Ya, right. Using a lot of words which sound intelligent doesn’t always end up forming an intelligent sentence. In this case, it definitely didn’t. Would you please be so kind as to illustrate on how socialism and atheism are linked? You claim that it’s a logical consequence; but why would that be so? Where is the consequence, where is the logics behind such a statement?
Therefore the cause of terrorism is not ‘religion’ but Athesim
Brilliance. You actually went through the pain of posting 5 different statements but use only one to base your conclusion on? Nice.
I can’t even be bothered to reply to the conclusion in the first place. Just let me give you a hint on what to do next time.
Read about what you are writing (and I really mean something else then the Bible) before you go ahead and publish something.
Ahoy
Thanks for the link!
Well, you got me on a few points of Gran’ma — I mean grammar — but I can’t honestly say you laid a glove anywhere else.
The Commies pretty much invented modern terrorist tactics (and killed more people with them than Al Qaeda ever has in Vietnam alone, although when you include Algeria etc. the Islamists are probably ahead). And yes they existed pre-WWII (and ‘terror’ as a weapon has existed as long as Man himself), but post war was when ‘asymetrical warfare’ (ie modern terrorism) really took off. I believe the cruelty and oppression of the Ottomans (which only ended due to WWI) is the single biggest factor in the wretched state of the Middle East today (I wrote about this in ‘Muslims in the West’). Hitler was too a Socialist, he was a _National_ Socialist, said so himself (National Socialist German Workers Party and all that … that he hated the Reds means little, it was more of an inter-factional hatred that had as much to do with to Bolsheviks perceived Jewishness as anything else, plus the obvious threat they posed). But, overall, the other factions of Socialism are pretty minor in comparison to the Reds — the Communists were and are the classic Socialists (again, don’t take my word for it, they say so themselves). Sayyid Qutb was for sure a Hitlerite — Saddam Hussein was too! Arafat began his abominable career as a Soviet tool (something of a faux Nationalist too, but Soviet doctrine accommodates a loose anti-colonialist Nationalism) only adopted an Islamic veneer right at the end. And yes, sadly, Socialism/Communism/Nazism and not Secular Humanism are the logical extension of materialistic atheism (I use the modifying term materialistic to distinguish it from the atheism of some Buddhists, who don’t acknowledge God, but nevertheless believe Man has an immortal soul). I deal with that (plus some other topics that will really make you howl) on my other ‘Blog — truthhope.net (for example ‘Bourgeois Sentimentalism’). …(did I miss anything).
Nice try though.
Stop by again, I love a good argument!
“The Commies pretty much invented modern terrorist tactics (and killed more people with them than Al Qaeda ever has in Vietnam alone…”
Excuse me. Are you referring to the Vietnam War? Because I’m not sure if terrorism can exist in a warzone. Terrorism is usually acts of war against the civilian population. And not in a warzone — because then these wouldn’t be victims of terrorism, but victims of war.
I am seriously wondering what you are talking about. Nobody, and I really mean nobody questions that many people have died under the soviet regime in the USSR. There are actually more people who have died in Goulags than in the Nazi concentration camps.
But where is the connection to “modern terrorist tactics”. And what exactly was the (direct) involvement of the USSR in Vietnam? What has that to do with terrorism?
What has the conflict in Algeria, or the Algerian Revolution to do with terrorism?
Of course terrorism has existed before World War 2. But terrorism is nothing but the weapon of those who don’t have the money to buy decent warfare gear.
And why don’t you stop saying things like the “oppression of the Ottomans”. That’s just not true. Especially the part that it stopped due to the end of World War 1. Sure, even while Turkey was an official belligerent party in World War 1, there was the “Armenian Genocide“, but that’s about it in that regard. If you are seriously interested in the history of that region, go ahead and grab yourself a copy of A Peace to End All Peace. It’s a brilliant book giving you a lot of unbiased (or largely so) information about mainly the Ottoman Empire just before World War 1 to the splitting up.
Concerning Hitler having been a National Socialist. Well, let me tell you this: Calling grass red won’t make it to be red. And the measures his junta put in place was rather populist then socialist politics.
About Communists calling themselves the classic Socialists: Every political party says so, every sect, and every religion tries to sell itself saying that they are the one and only correct alternative. But again, that won’t make the grass any more red.
I am not judging Sayyid in such a manner. But let me put it differently. Would you call General Douglas MacArthur a Hiterlite as well because of his plan to make an atomic fence?
And thank you for explaining what you understand by materialistic atheism. I wasn’t quite sure that I had understood correctly what you meant by it, tried to google for it – but couldn’t find any valuable information. If you would now be so kind as to explain why Socialism/Communism/Nazism is a logical conclusion / extension of “materialistic atheism” and how believing that one has an immortal soul can prevent it from being a conclusion or extension – I’d be very grateful.
One thing though before I stop here.
Please insert some new lines at times. A clearly structured comment is much easier to read – and more importantly less tiresome to reply to. I am not saying that I know how to clearly structure something, being a bad writer, but I’m trying to ;-).
I’ll go through your “Muslims in the West” during the evening.
Bob
I know a few Buddhists, so I coined the term ‘materialistic atheism’ to avoid including them. I don’t agree with Buddhist atheists (and not all Buddhists are atheists), but they are closer to the truth than they are to Materialism, besides Materialism (used in the philosophical sense of the word, not the everday modern sense) is pretty much a synonym for atheism in Marxist Leninism anyway.
Algeria, I mean the Islamist campaign of terror that ended only recently (they say the terrorists killed 100,000).
As for the Ottomans, c’mon, they were brutes — the Arabs haven’t forgotten. Corrupt, inept, cruel, militarist thugs. They have no political connection with the terrorists (well, just a few, but there’s no space for that here), but their centuries long brutalisation of the Arabs are ultimately responsible. Remember, the Arabs were just like us — a wealthy, advanced, civilised, enlighted pre-modern society — before Ghengis Khan.
Of course terrorism can take place in a war zone — Iraq is a war zone isn’t it? The tactics of the Communists in the early 60s, before the destruction of the Viet Cong during and after the Tet Offensive, were basically exactly what Al Qaeda in Iraq are doing now. But it lasted longer and more people died.
You may not accept Hitler as a Socialist, but he and the Nazis certainly thought of themselves that way. The Nazis were exactly what they said — National Socialists. They were against Capitalism and for state control of the economy. were atheists who drew their philosophy from the same ‘atheist materialist’ philosophic well as Marx, although less ‘scientifically’ (materialistic atheism is junk science, but Marxism is the most logically consistent philosophy to be derived from it — garbage in, garbage out, though).
They despised Christians and the Bourgeoisie although, basing their evil on race and nationality not class, their first targets were the ‘race enemies’, not ‘class enemies’. Also, Hitler never controlled Germany as completely as the Soviets did the USSR (in particular the army was always the least effectively controlled institution, hence the need to create the SS), so Hitler could not have safely acted against the church and the Bourgeoisie during his time in power. Things he said and wrote indicate that this was his eventual intention, though.
MacArthur was a great liberal (in the classic sense) and a great man. He may have been over eager to use nuclear weapons — remember, to him, they were miracle weapons that had just saved the USA from the 1,000,000 casualties expected for Operation Olympic — but when he oversaw the restructuring of Japan, he put in place excellent world-class, liberal, democratic institutions that have been the salvation of that wonderful country.
Anyway, way too many subjects to debate properly all at once, hence the deliberate lack of paragraph breaks previously.
This is exactly the point I just can not understand. Where exactly do you see a difference between atheism in general and atheism in Marxist-Leninism? Atheism to me is what it says it is. “A-Theos”. “Without God”. How can there be a difference?
Ok, fair enough – though I guess the Number is a bit far fetched. I am not going to question it though as I just do not know how many there have been.
I can’t remember having said that the Ottomans were gentle people at that time. But you are avoiding the problem here. There is no direct connection between the countries that the Ottoman Empire has ruled and terrorism. Even if we could settle on the fact that there was, we would still findourself confronted with the simple fact that not all the regions behave similarly. In essence this means that the Mahgreb is behaving differently than Yugoslavia, and both of those are behaving differently then Azerbaijan or the Iran. Hell, we could just as well say that Austria could have become a host for terrorists. After all, the Ottomans stood before Vienna.
There is no unified spirit going on there. The effects are very broad, and can’t be seriously linked to the Ottomans. If you can prove me wrong, please – by all means – go ahead. I have never heart of a similar prove though, and would like to see it.
Hm? Terrorism can not take place in a war zone. That is all modern day crappy and shitty journalism. There are no other words for it, so I won’t put it any differently. Of course the opposing party (the belligerent part we get our information from – or are you reading Arabic newspapers?) are calling it otherwise. Have you ever seen a war where the other side isn’t fighting back by all means?
You could just as well say that when the soviets fought in Stalingrad against the Germans they were acting as terrorists (supposedly) doing now. Hiding in buildings, attacking enemy troops from different positions. Loose combat formations and the like. That simply doesn’t make any sense. You could just as well say that the Allied forces where using terrorist measures when fighting in the Belgian and LuxembourgianArdennes. Again, that makes no sense.
Where do you draw the line?
I really don’t know where you get your information on the Third Reich from, nor how you got your information about Socialism and Marxism. It all seems to be heavily biased. Heavily biased.
Nope, not true. The first targets was the Communist Party – who were said to have lit the Reichstag, and were said to be responsible for the Dolchstoß.
Second point isn’t true either. Hitler had the command over the entire German forces. Have a look at the so called Führerbefehle
Ya, of course. But he knew the consequences that would have on the population. They knew how many people had died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki some years back. And he knew so as well. Saying that to him those where miracle weapons is fine. Saying that to him that was the best way to deal with things is fine as well. But you are standing on the edge of a knife there. Many people have done many bad things because they thought it was the best way to deal with things.
Yet, the only reason we don’t see MacArthur as a “Hitlerite” is because some people had enough sense to whistle him back.
Acknowledged, but too many subjects makes a crucial need for paragraph breaks.
Ignorant people are more easily moved by religious causes and promises of imaginary rewards than by logic, which requires training and tends to lead to inconvenient conclusions. Terrorism is a political tool, facilitated by religion as a means to inflame those with resentment about (add particular issue here). It no more causes terrorism than it caused the US invasion of Iraq. It is a convenient excuse and carrot on a stick, but it is not a first cause.
Bob,
I’ll tell what, I don’t like the term ‘biased’, it implies I’m wrong (a position that, if true, ought to be established by argument). However I will accept the more neutral synonym ‘highly opinionated’.
I see a big difference between Buddhists who believe Man has an immortal soul, that life has a powerful spiritual component and that the Universe is underpinned by spiritual forces; and those he see no reality but the crude mechanics of the physical world. A huge difference. The proof is that Communists are nothing like Buddhists. If you won’t agree to wear the ‘materialist’ tag yourself, perhaps you need to explicitly repudiate those — Dawkins and Hitches for example — for whom the Materialist tag is entirely fitting (your support for whom I have assumed, sorry if I’m mistaken).
True, Hitler attacked the Communists. Although, he repeatedly describes Communism as a Jewish phenomenon, so I don’t think that disproves my point. Not to mention the obvious political threat the Communists posed which he needed to neutralise in order to cement power. Besides which, intense hatred between Socialist factions is typical of that awful cult, not an aberration. That he hated Bolshevism doesn’t prove he was not a Socialist any more than the hatred of Trotsky and his faction proves the same for Stalin.
And I don’t argue that Hitler absolutely commanded the Armed forces, but not sufficiently to prevent them plotting against him or occasionally disobeying his orders. Hitler frequently expressed frustration with the recalcitrance and independence of of the Wehrmacht senior officers (Stalin never had that problem). The Wehrmacht, although mostly intensely loyal to Hitler personally, was never the highly indoctrinated and politicised tool of Nazism that the Red Army was for Communism.
I know the term ‘terrorism’ has been applied to many different tactics throughout history, but murdering non-combatants (including hacking the heads off little kids) and blowing up their own people with no military justification, that’s terrorism in my book wherever it takes place. No need to over-complicate things.
I don’t dispute what you say about MacArthur, but historical figures to be judged on the totality of their words and deeds, not the worst things they once said. MacArthur’s positive achievements are so extraordinary that I will gladly overlook his career-long weakness for saying obnoxious and outrageous things.
I don’t blame the Ottomans for terrorism, I blame the USSR squarely the reinventing, exporting and nurturing of that evil tactic — with particular curses to be heaped on the grave of their most murderous Middle-Eastern tool, Arafat. I do blame the Ottomans more generally, though, for reducing the noble Muslims of the MIddle East to the degraded, brutalised and backward state that has made them so prone to supporting terrorism. Also for imposing a centuries-long system of corrupt and autocratic rule which the Arabs have yet to throw off.
Much like Anglo-Saxons such as I must accept that our forbears (the famous ‘Capitalist Imperialist’ of the 19th Century — I wrote about them too) were responsible for creating the environment in which Communism in East Asia could flourish.
As I said in one of my LittleTinSoldier posts, Muslims are Christians’ beloved cousins who were once very much like us. ‘There but for the Grace of God, go I’ has never been more apt.
The original post was intended to highlight the absurdity of blaming religion for terrorism, when it is so blatantly not a religious act. I sacrificed breadth for brevity and emphasis (I think it worked) because I believe ‘religion causes terrorism’ is a patently weak argument — whether wielded by anti-Mulsim Rightists or anti-Christian Leftists.
…and Bill, you may thing I’m wrong, even deluded. But I defy you call me ignorant.
Bill, I’m sorry – I just re-read your comment. I think my remark directed at you was unjustified.
Kip,
sorry for not having been able to get back sooner to our little discussion here. I wished I could have – but was unfortunately a bit busy at work.
Not being a native English speaker, I might not have grasped the probably slight difference between highly opinionated and biased. As far as I understand it though, biased doesn’t imply that something is wrong, it just means (again – to my understanding) that something is or might be subjective and should thus be analysed with a grain of salt. Whatever way I look at it, I can’t see a clear difference between biased and highly opinionated.
If you prefer it though, I’ll not use biased in that context again.
I am as well totally against people like Dawkins and Hitches (which I do not know – but as you name them together, I suppose they share the same set of ideas; will look him up later though), as I am against people trying to put their religious believes in front of anything they and others believe in. In a certain way I just can’t be bothered to argue about similar things – which might make me an agnostic some time. Yet at the beginning I still am, and will probably be for some time a radical atheist.
No hard feelings, but that’s the way it is.
On a not totally serious side note: What if for some people the what you label crude mechanics of the physical world is some sort of spiritual force? A force that they believe in? A force that actually can be explained and is more logical to a lot of people then deities?
Er. Yup, the Nazis did describe Communism as a Jewish phenomenon. Yet, Communism didn’t become a problem because it was supposed to be a Jewish phenomenon, but because the social system (as in the system applicable to the society – not as social in social interaction) wasn’t deemed to be good. That aside, the Nazis had to produce a lot and Communism might have been just a bit to sluggish in certain things.
You certainly know that the Schutzstaffel was created in 1925; or actually 1923 if you consider the Stabswache to be the same thing.
And Stalin might not have had that problem because he went ahead and had most of his senior officers shot in 1938. (One of the reasons by the way why the German forces advanced just that fast through Russia at the beginning. There were almost no qualified officers able to give the highly trained German officers something to chew on.)
What you are doing here is something I don’t like. In my opinion, and certainly in the one of many of the few people reading this hacking the heads off little kids is anAppeal to Emotion and by there a very, very bad thing to use in a discussion. Especially if your discussion partner, in this occasion me, knows about such tactics.
But to get back to your point. I do not believe that in a war zone, or in a war if you wish, these things can be qualified as terrorism. Sure, they are atrocious and will most probably always be. One of the reasons why they happen isn’t because those people are bad people, but because they are desperate. They don’t have a way to decently fight the well organized allied troops in Iraq, they have nothing to eat and yet they continue to fight for what they believe is right.
As they can’t attack the allied troops openly, they are doing something else. Attacking people who are working with the allies, so that the other people (not harmed by their maneuvers) will perhaps join their side and help them. Another approach would be to get to the US, the UK or Australia for that matter and attack the families of the soldiers fighting the war on the other side of the earth. It’s called psycho-terror. And has been used for ages, because it weakens the mentality of soldiers – anywhere in the world – and of any nation. (This is quite hard to explain – I do hope you get my point though ;-))
So, in that regard Mao was a fine guy? I mean, after all he got China out of feudalism, ended slavery and gave everybody a cup of rice a day (though the last thing is obviously a myth)?
Terrorism never had to be reinvented. It was always there, and will never leave us. And if anything, the countries responsible for the degraded, brutalised and backward (sic!) states are the European superpowers of the 19th century till after the first World War.
Yes, and? Everything can be described by cause and effect. Can we do something against these little mishaps of history? No. Would it be good not to do anything new out of fear that something bad could happen? No. We have to go on, and learn by mistakes. Not sit there, discuss for ages and come to the conclusion that we shouldn’t do anything or that we are doing things to late.
They actually still are. Just as many of them are peace loving, respectable members of their nation as we have Catholics in our regions. If I read the Pope saying things like everything but roman-Catholicism is not the true religion – I am reminded of the conflict between the Sunni and the Shia. If I read something about murders and acts of terrorism in the middle east – always said to be done by religious fundamentalists – I picture Northern Ireland, where it’s always described using other words.
There is no difference in my opinion, and I’d be foolish to say otherwise then.
Religion doesn’t necessarily provoque terrorism, yet it makes it easier – in my opinion at least. The question Does religion cause terrorism? is fair question to be asked. The conclusion that religion causes terrorism is far fetched and absurdly generalized. Of your 5 arguments however, 4 were just as generalized.
Cheers,
Bob
Hi Bob,
I’ll let yours be the last word, since it’s your ‘Blog, but I hope we can take up discussion of some of these and other points soon.
I will be checking out your ‘Blog again very soon.
En garde!
By the way, your written English is flawless.
I had assumed from some of your earlier posts that you were an American living in Germany…
Admitting that the comment system is neither thought nor well fitted for a lengthy discussion, especially with numerous side topics I guess it’ll be fine to leave the discussion at what it is.
Even though I didn’t, and actually still don’t, share your opinion I have to admit that it was a pleasure talking about these topics to you.
Thank you for the roses, concerning my English. It’s very much appreciated.
Bob
For the record: Luxembourgian, having lived nowhere but there, studying and living since 2 years in Innsbruck Austria.